H
NEWDOC2002
1,000+ Posts
I really think.you need to take a deep breath and a few hours to recollect.your thoughts and rewrite this OP. Your writing style is not fluid and borders on tangential. It would be more informative to the lay person and esp us ignorant Americans to get a better back story on these groups and their recent history of organization and backing. Your charges are heady and I cannot make heads or tails from your post and linked foreign website.
These atrocities must be publicized no matter who committed them.
These atrocities must be publicized no matter who committed them.
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
It is also based on Russian propaganda. The events in Ukraine are being driven and directed by Russia and Putin.
While I do not think we will or should intervene, we should never lose sight of the bad actor in this. It is Russia. There is no point that Russia or Putin have. None. The majority of Ukrainians (including those in the east and south) have zero desire to join Russia. The majority of Ukrainians in the west and central part want to join the EU.
The history of the nationalist Right Sector Party (a minority party that won about 10% of the vote) is too complex for this BBS. It is sophistry to call them Nazis though. It is considerably more complex than this and requires an understanding of what Stalin did to Ukraine before WW II.
The Link
While I do not think we will or should intervene, we should never lose sight of the bad actor in this. It is Russia. There is no point that Russia or Putin have. None. The majority of Ukrainians (including those in the east and south) have zero desire to join Russia. The majority of Ukrainians in the west and central part want to join the EU.
The history of the nationalist Right Sector Party (a minority party that won about 10% of the vote) is too complex for this BBS. It is sophistry to call them Nazis though. It is considerably more complex than this and requires an understanding of what Stalin did to Ukraine before WW II.
The Link
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
I know several people who actually live in Ukraine. They told me numerous things about Crimea weeks before it came out in the media including the presence of Russian Special Forces with the protesters. They also told me correctly that Ukraine would not fight over Crimea, but that the actions in eastern Ukraine could lead to a full blown war because Ukraine would fight Russia over it.
They told me that the Russian news is completely full of **** and controlled by Moscow. I have seen zero throughout this crisis to dissuade me from this view. I have repeatedly told them that while the West sympathizes with their side that they should expect zero military assistance. I also know about the split between the old and young over Russia and the USSR. Many older people long for the stability provided by the USSR.
My views on the "news" coming from Ukraine are heavily influenced by actual people who live there including one of the Maiden protestors. It is also heavily influenced by my political science degree and research into Ukraine. I have a very long-standing dislike of Stalin and Russian imperialism. I am not a fan of isolationism and was and am a huge fan of containment. I view Putin as a serious geo-political problem.
You need only compare Poland and Ukraine to see the value of joining the EU versus staying tied to Russia. Poland has tripled its GDP since 1991 and Ukraine has gone backwards. You don't think most of the people especially the youth know this?
You appear to want to take Russian news at face value. I think this may be because it supports your distinctly isolationist point of view. This does not make it true or incapable of being scrutinized. I regret that you choose to delete your original contribution to this thread. It is an interesting viewpoint and one that should be considered and discussed. I do think that when you use Russian sources of news and say that Putin has a point, you should expect a rather virulent reaction from sort of the center of both parties.
I agree that the situation in Ukraine is more complex than most of the Western media portrays. The media tends to portray it as an East vs. West confrontation when the reality is that Maiden was primarily a protest fueled by political corruption. The overthrow of the government in Ukraine threatened Moscow with a popular revolt. While this "explains" Putin's subsequent actions in destabilizing Ukraine and puts a non-US/EU spin on things, it does not give me any solace or sympathy for Russia or the oligarchs.
I enjoy the discussion. I do not particularly care for Russian sources of news on Ukraine because it is almost impossible to sort out what is ********. I have not asked my friends about Odessa (although I know someone who lives there). I will. I do know from earlier discussions and news that the majority of people in Odessa do not want to rejoin Russia. I also know that it is one of the key places desired by Russia because of its location on the Black Sea.
You do realize that Ron and Rand Paul are pretty far removed from the mainstream and that isolationism was rejected by most Americans in 1941? You appear to just expect to lecture to folks and have docile compliance. I have been on this site for well over ten years. When your primary sources of news are Russian, I do not think this is a realistic expectation. You will probably find some support on the fringes of both parties (perhaps more from the right on here), but the traditional parts of both parties view the US's role as interventionist and global.
This does not mean that either party thinks we should militarily intervene in Ukraine and I certainly do not. I do think Putin is a huge menace and a clear bad guy in all this. I think that I may understand what he is doing (or have two theories) both make him a bad guy.
They told me that the Russian news is completely full of **** and controlled by Moscow. I have seen zero throughout this crisis to dissuade me from this view. I have repeatedly told them that while the West sympathizes with their side that they should expect zero military assistance. I also know about the split between the old and young over Russia and the USSR. Many older people long for the stability provided by the USSR.
My views on the "news" coming from Ukraine are heavily influenced by actual people who live there including one of the Maiden protestors. It is also heavily influenced by my political science degree and research into Ukraine. I have a very long-standing dislike of Stalin and Russian imperialism. I am not a fan of isolationism and was and am a huge fan of containment. I view Putin as a serious geo-political problem.
You need only compare Poland and Ukraine to see the value of joining the EU versus staying tied to Russia. Poland has tripled its GDP since 1991 and Ukraine has gone backwards. You don't think most of the people especially the youth know this?
You appear to want to take Russian news at face value. I think this may be because it supports your distinctly isolationist point of view. This does not make it true or incapable of being scrutinized. I regret that you choose to delete your original contribution to this thread. It is an interesting viewpoint and one that should be considered and discussed. I do think that when you use Russian sources of news and say that Putin has a point, you should expect a rather virulent reaction from sort of the center of both parties.
I agree that the situation in Ukraine is more complex than most of the Western media portrays. The media tends to portray it as an East vs. West confrontation when the reality is that Maiden was primarily a protest fueled by political corruption. The overthrow of the government in Ukraine threatened Moscow with a popular revolt. While this "explains" Putin's subsequent actions in destabilizing Ukraine and puts a non-US/EU spin on things, it does not give me any solace or sympathy for Russia or the oligarchs.
I enjoy the discussion. I do not particularly care for Russian sources of news on Ukraine because it is almost impossible to sort out what is ********. I have not asked my friends about Odessa (although I know someone who lives there). I will. I do know from earlier discussions and news that the majority of people in Odessa do not want to rejoin Russia. I also know that it is one of the key places desired by Russia because of its location on the Black Sea.
You do realize that Ron and Rand Paul are pretty far removed from the mainstream and that isolationism was rejected by most Americans in 1941? You appear to just expect to lecture to folks and have docile compliance. I have been on this site for well over ten years. When your primary sources of news are Russian, I do not think this is a realistic expectation. You will probably find some support on the fringes of both parties (perhaps more from the right on here), but the traditional parts of both parties view the US's role as interventionist and global.
This does not mean that either party thinks we should militarily intervene in Ukraine and I certainly do not. I do think Putin is a huge menace and a clear bad guy in all this. I think that I may understand what he is doing (or have two theories) both make him a bad guy.
Third Coast
10,000+ Posts
I think Putin longs for the days of The Soviet Union and the cold war. You can take the boy out of the KGB, but you can't take the KGB out of the boy.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Read the NYTimes article. Yes it is "murky" but there is also ample evidence that Russia is supporting (inciting?) the Pro-Russia supporters. I liken this to when we had CIA in Afghanistan supporting the Taliban during their decades of wars with the Soviet Union. How crazy is it that the battle hardened survivors of that conflict came back to haunt us in Afghanistan (the Taliban) and now in Ukraine (separatists)?
HuskerTo be factual the Taliban did not exist when Russia was fighting in Afghanistan.
Russia was there in the 80's, almost the entire decade
The Taliban ruled in Afghanistan starting in 96.
The Taliban came into power due to the vacuum created by Russia leaving.
But your point, that we, the USA, backed factions who were fighting the Russians in accurate. It was just not the Taliban
Russia was there in the 80's, almost the entire decade
The Taliban ruled in Afghanistan starting in 96.
The Taliban came into power due to the vacuum created by Russia leaving.
But your point, that we, the USA, backed factions who were fighting the Russians in accurate. It was just not the Taliban
pasotex
2,500+ Posts
I have zero problem with someone who is an isolationist in foreign policy. This is a completely legitimate position. I find parts of libertarian political philosophy very appealing particularly on drugs and concerning personal rights. It certainly is purer than either mainstream Republicans or Democrats. My brother and father are both about half libertarian and half Republican although they tend to vote Republican more often than Libertarian.
I consider myself to be Democrat on foreign policy along the lines of Wilson, FDR, and Truman. I think the US has an important role to play in world affairs and does need to intervene (at times although not here) and should contain the territorial ambitions of Putin and Russia at the NATO borders.
You and I agree on Ukraine that the US should not intervene. We come at it from very different angles, but we do agree. We also come at it with conflicting sources of information. I think this is the source of your consternation with what I posted.
I agree that Ukraine is not, at this point, where our national interests rest. Ukraine chose not to join NATO and this choice has consequences. We do not have a reason to defend Ukraine (I am concerned with the 1994 treaty whereby Ukraine relinquished nuclear weapons, but in the end its decision to not join NATO controls with me).
I am, however, very firmly on the side of the people in Kiev, the Maidan movement, and the youth. It is partly because I am naturally on the side of the rebels against a corrupt regime, but primarily because I know a number of people in Ukraine. I am hopeful that someday all or a part of Ukraine will join the EU and NATO. This is what I want to see.
There is a tremendous amount of propaganda being generated by Russia concerning Ukraine. You need only look at what relatively neutral countries like Finland and Sweden are doing to realize that the aggressor and bad actor in all this is Russia. Russia is behaving very stupidly long-term because it is driving numerous european countries into our orbit. This is the real loss for Putin and Russia. He got Crimea (a place they already had and will have to subsidize for billions) and in exchange made Poland, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania basically full military members of NATO.
Putin also made every european country including Germany and Ukraine excellent customers for US and Qatar LNG. This is what is coming in the coming decade. Russia will be decimated economically much like the first cold war.
I reacted fairly aggressively to your post because I considered the sources to most likely be Russian propaganda. The tragedy in Odessa has two sides. I regret if you took it as a personal attack on your political position because this was not my intent. As I said, I think we agree on Ukraine although we come at it from very different angles. We disagree I think significantly on containment and defense spending.
I read a significant amount on Ukraine and also talk to several people on the ground (although not every day). I have a tendency to believe western news reports far more than anything from Russia. This is particularly true because Russia very obviously lied about Crimea. Russia has now admitted that it lied about both its intentions and the presence of its troops in Crimea.
Why should we believe anything it says now?
This is not to say that I think my sources are completely "true". The reality is that I do not know. I try to synthesize and understand all sources of information. I do, however, as an American who came of age in the 70's and 80's have an ingrained dislike of Russia and USSR even while as a student of history I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for what they went through and accomplished in WW II.
In summary, we agree that the US should not militarily intervene in Ukraine. We disagree on the after effects and containment which may constitute the Second Cold War. I apologize if my reaction to your sources of information were considered personal attacks. There is very conflicting information coming from the region and while I think my sources are more "true", I am not 100% sure that this is the case.
I consider myself to be Democrat on foreign policy along the lines of Wilson, FDR, and Truman. I think the US has an important role to play in world affairs and does need to intervene (at times although not here) and should contain the territorial ambitions of Putin and Russia at the NATO borders.
You and I agree on Ukraine that the US should not intervene. We come at it from very different angles, but we do agree. We also come at it with conflicting sources of information. I think this is the source of your consternation with what I posted.
I agree that Ukraine is not, at this point, where our national interests rest. Ukraine chose not to join NATO and this choice has consequences. We do not have a reason to defend Ukraine (I am concerned with the 1994 treaty whereby Ukraine relinquished nuclear weapons, but in the end its decision to not join NATO controls with me).
I am, however, very firmly on the side of the people in Kiev, the Maidan movement, and the youth. It is partly because I am naturally on the side of the rebels against a corrupt regime, but primarily because I know a number of people in Ukraine. I am hopeful that someday all or a part of Ukraine will join the EU and NATO. This is what I want to see.
There is a tremendous amount of propaganda being generated by Russia concerning Ukraine. You need only look at what relatively neutral countries like Finland and Sweden are doing to realize that the aggressor and bad actor in all this is Russia. Russia is behaving very stupidly long-term because it is driving numerous european countries into our orbit. This is the real loss for Putin and Russia. He got Crimea (a place they already had and will have to subsidize for billions) and in exchange made Poland, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania basically full military members of NATO.
Putin also made every european country including Germany and Ukraine excellent customers for US and Qatar LNG. This is what is coming in the coming decade. Russia will be decimated economically much like the first cold war.
I reacted fairly aggressively to your post because I considered the sources to most likely be Russian propaganda. The tragedy in Odessa has two sides. I regret if you took it as a personal attack on your political position because this was not my intent. As I said, I think we agree on Ukraine although we come at it from very different angles. We disagree I think significantly on containment and defense spending.
I read a significant amount on Ukraine and also talk to several people on the ground (although not every day). I have a tendency to believe western news reports far more than anything from Russia. This is particularly true because Russia very obviously lied about Crimea. Russia has now admitted that it lied about both its intentions and the presence of its troops in Crimea.
Why should we believe anything it says now?
This is not to say that I think my sources are completely "true". The reality is that I do not know. I try to synthesize and understand all sources of information. I do, however, as an American who came of age in the 70's and 80's have an ingrained dislike of Russia and USSR even while as a student of history I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for what they went through and accomplished in WW II.
In summary, we agree that the US should not militarily intervene in Ukraine. We disagree on the after effects and containment which may constitute the Second Cold War. I apologize if my reaction to your sources of information were considered personal attacks. There is very conflicting information coming from the region and while I think my sources are more "true", I am not 100% sure that this is the case.
D
dillohorn
Guest
The U.S. should get a naval base lease on the Ukraine coast. Would be hilarious. What a hoot that would be to stick it to Putin. We could call it Gitmo II.
The problem with running any race is that you have to be able to agree with anyone face to face then disagree with those same people when speaking to those disagreeing with those folks you just supported. It's called being a two faced slimy politician and is the main problem with our country. Everyone wants to be pleased instead of being told the truth.
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