And just like that, for me, it's over.

Sorry, tried to edit and deleted my post., so...

^^^ Zero? Strongly disagree Horns 11.

It WAS heat of the moment but Herman threw ALL UT fans under the bus as racist to THOSE players at THAT time IMHO.

It was wrong & despicable pandering.

A good coach and LEADER would have had a measured and supportive statement to the players without pointing to a bad guy or attack the fans.
 
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WorsterMan said:
Sorry, tried to edit and deleted my post., so...

^^^ Zero? Strongly disagree Horns 11.

It was heat of the moment but Herman threw ALL UT fans under the bus as racist to THOSE players at THAT time.

It was wrong & dispecable pandering.

A good coach would have had a measured and supportive statement to the players without pointing to a "suspect" or attacking fans.
Click to expand...
Yep Herman called fans and alumni racists. Hit the road. Maybe you can go back to Ohio State with your wife beating friends. POS.
 
my memory does not recollect him differentiating the fans in the statement. In mean he didn’t say ‘some of you’ or anything similar as I remember.
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Naturally, since he was asking a question of all fans, not making a statement about them. If your answer to the question was the right one, then the obvious and straightforward implication of what he said was that you aren't racist. If your answer to the question was "No, I wouldn't allow my kids to date someone of a different race" or "No, I wouldn't trust someone who doesn't share my demographics to have a position of power in my corporate office", then the implication was that you are racist and need to change.

Claiming that his question is "calling out" the people in the first group is incredibly disingenuous.
 
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Statalyzer said:
Naturally, since he was asking a question of all fans, not making a statement about them. If your answer to the question was the right one, then the obvious and straightforward implication of what he said was that you aren't racist. If your answer to the question was "No, I wouldn't allow my kids to date someone of a different race" or "No, I wouldn't trust someone who doesn't share my demographics to have a position of power in my corporate office", then the implication was that you are racist and need to change.

Claiming that his question is "calling out" the people in the first group is incredibly disingenuous.
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I think Statalyzer is close to the truth. I don't think Herman was actually calling all of the fans racists. At the same time, TH can be cocky (not always bad under the right circumstances if you can back it up) and display an "in your face" challenging attitude to the press, fans, and I am sure to his players during practice. He was not delicate about a delicate subject. It goes without saying that TH is not Mack--Mack is naturally a Southern people person who is great at alumni PR.

That said, it is OK to be challenged sometimes, if it is done in the right way. If you go to church, temple, etc. or have attended a service in the past, at times a good minister can really make you think. I am not saying that TH should be equated with a good preacher, but I think it was OK if TH was saying "my guys are laying it on the line for you fans every Saturday in the fall, and I know Texas fans are always going to respect our players 100%, inside and out, all the time whether or not they are playing football, or out in the community, no matter what their color." Being a good defender of your guys all the time can of course be motivating to the players. TH did not say it like that, of course, because he can be a hothead and a showboat (naked head vs. helmet butting) and is often not a tactful person.

Everyone on this board I am sure knows what a real racist looks and sounds like. If you are upset because TH or anyone else called you a racist, or may have implied that you are a racist, you are not a racist. As the old saying goes, "actions speak louder than words." If you are a Caucasian and are driving along in your pickup truck, and you see a Black, or Hispanic, or Asian, or Middle Eastern family by the side of the road with their engine on fire, or not able to change a flat tire, and you are going to stop and help them out, or call Highway Patrol or the Sheriff's Office to send someone out to help, you are not a racist.

The fact that everyone on this board speaking out about this subject is sensitive about even possibly being called (or implied) a racist, or grouped with racists, means our society has moved a long, long way forward from the way it used to be...
 
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Seems Herman was trying to defend and support his players. Most of the black players don’t think like Candace Owens or Brandon Tatum. Conservative. These guys are young black athletes and TH has to get them going in one direction. Not sure how he can look good to fans and players simultaneously. I worked with young black men for years in the Oil and Gas industry. I guess I understand what he was dealing with. Two very different cultures.
 
UTLAWMBA1991 said:
Extortion is a crime typically punishable by jail /imprisonment. Threatening to quit a job, or threatening to not play a game and perhaps void a scholarship, is not a crime in America... didn't Johnny Paycheck sing "Take this job and shove it... I ain't workin here no more..." I don't think he was imprisoned for that line... we used to dance to it anyway...
Click to expand...

I'm not advocating arrests. I'm just saying that's what they are doing. They know the power they have.
 
I am not sure why some posters are trying to defend or change the intent, reason why, or validity of what Herman said about white fans and donors, it is there in black and white. He never apologized or clarified, so why would anyone do it for him. It is ridiculous to suggest tens of thousands of white fans/donors being slandered by Herman is somehow okay because of where Herman is from, or his personality makeup, or defending his players. The fact he said the result of the feckless administration action is a first step pretty much tells you he thinks he was right. The suggestion the fans/donors should use being slandered to introspect themselves is ludicrous.
 
IvanDiabloHorn said:
I am not sure why some posters are trying to defend or change the intent, reason why, or validity of what Herman said about white fans and donors, it is there in black and white. He never apologized or clarified, so why would anyone do it for him. It is ridiculous to suggest tens of thousands of white fans/donors being slandered by Herman is somehow okay because of where Herman is from, or his personality makeup, or defending his players. The fact he said the result of the feckless administration action is a first step pretty much tells you he thinks he was right. The suggestion the fans/donors should use being slandered to introspect themselves is ludicrous.
Click to expand...

It's the same as them defending the methodology: DO THIS OR ELSE.

An idealist knows no truth except the holiness of their vision.

There two main ways of change that were put forward by Malcolm X and Dr. King:

1) "By any means necessary."

2) Direct action which included purification of the spirit so as to not be provoked or to take it upon yourself to destroy property or harm others.

By any means necessary is the tool of change for those who defend the means no matter what they are.

Do you have a link to Herman's comments concerning the white fans and donors?
 
IMHO black leaders like Candace Owen, Brandon Tatum, Allen West, maybe perhaps Kanye if he remains stable, MUST lead the movement to a conservative platform. Black Panthers, Race Baiters, BLM, Antifa have hijacked the whole race and led to their downfall. TH is not a factor in any of this, like me he’s just trying to hold together and build his career and family. His tactics are what piss people off. That’s personality, but it is a factor in his success.
 
“Can the average fan relate? No, they can’t,” Herman said. “There’s a double standard maybe a little bit. We’re going to pack 100,000 people into DKR and millions watch on TV that are predominantly white — not all of them certainly, but most of ’em white. We’re gonna cheer when they score touchdowns, and we’re gonna hug our buddy when they get sacks or an interception. But we gonna let them date our daughter? Are we going to hire them in a position of power in our company? That’s the question I have for America. You can’t have it both ways. And if you’re going to cheer them and love them for three-and-a-half hours a Saturday in the fall, you better have the same feelings for them off the field, because they’re human beings. They deserve the same amount of respect and human rights that all of us do in this country when we agreed on the social contract to be a member of the United States.”

Maybe I read things differently than other posters, but when he stated that "you better have the same feelings for them off the field," that's enough of a clarification that he's not calling all fans racist... just the ones who don't have the same feelings for them off the field.
 
We pay big dollars to go to the game and cheer for these STARS to do well. They raise their arms up over and over to get us to cheer louder. And we do. They have a full ride and are having the time of their lives.

That's what it is Tom. We relate to it. We relate to our part: PAY BIG $$$ AND SCREAM OURSELVES HOARSE.

Then we go home knowing we aren't star football players and they go home having yet to enter the real world with jobs and kids.

As for dating my daughter or hiring them at a big corporation, then I'd say that's a pretty simplistic thing that requires more in depth discussion.

But I'll say this, the bullies on your team can't date my daughter. The nice, high GPA guys can.
 
Coach limited his comments to those who have signed on to the social contract to be a member of the United States. I never signed so he wasn't talking about me.
 
Horns11 said:
“Can the average fan relate? No, they can’t,” Herman said. “There’s a double standard maybe a little bit. We’re going to pack 100,000 people into DKR and millions watch on TV that are predominantly white — not all of them certainly, but most of ’em white. We’re gonna cheer when they score touchdowns, and we’re gonna hug our buddy when they get sacks or an interception. But we gonna let them date our daughter? Are we going to hire them in a position of power in our company? That’s the question I have for America. You can’t have it both ways. And if you’re going to cheer them and love them for three-and-a-half hours a Saturday in the fall, you better have the same feelings for them off the field, because they’re human beings. They deserve the same amount of respect and human rights that all of us do in this country when we agreed on the social contract to be a member of the United States.”

Maybe I read things differently than other posters, but when he stated that "you better have the same feelings for them off the field," that's enough of a clarification that he's not calling all fans racist... just the ones who don't have the same feelings for them off the field.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but IMHO his lecturing statement was unnecessary, reckless, divisive and wrong. He singled out "predominately whites".

He lectured whites on how they should treat other "human beings" and extend "respect and human rights" (as though they were not). Granted he used a few caveats to soften the message: "double standard a little bit", "you can't have it both ways", etc.

IMHO he was pandering as I previously posted.
 
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Horns11 said:
That’s the question I have for America.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like he's talking to the entire nation.
And he is asking a question.
Not accusing anybody of anything.
It's a hypothetical question designed to make people think.
You guys are really twisting this and getting your panties in a wad over nothing.
 
moondog_LFZ said:
Sounds to me like he's talking to the entire nation.
And he is asking a question.
Not accusing anybody of anything.
It's a hypothetical question designed to make people think.
You guys are really twisting this and getting your panties in a wad over nothing.
Click to expand...

That last sentence means nothing except a sign that you think you're superior to everyone. It's an insult. So, that means you've crossed the line. You're taking the opinions of others personally. What you say is strictly an opinion as is what we say. It's all a matter of degree.

Herman gave an arrogant comment in support of the "Do this or else" command.

It's very clear to me.
 
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I am not sure why some posters are trying to defend or change the intent, reason why, or validity of what Herman said about white fans and donors, it is there in black and white. He never apologized or clarified, so why would anyone do it for him. It is ridiculous to suggest tens of thousands of white fans/donors being slandered by Herman is somehow okay because of where Herman is from, or his personality makeup, or defending his players. The fact he said the result of the feckless administration action is a first step pretty much tells you he thinks he was right. The suggestion the fans/donors should use being slandered to introspect themselves is ludicrous.
Click to expand...

This is a great example of how to ignore someone's argument and proceed as if you don't even wish to understand their point. Disagree if you want, but you ought to at least attempt to understand the actual thing you are disagreeing with.

Examples:
It is ridiculous to suggest tens of thousands of white fans/donors being slandered by Herman is somehow okay
Click to expand...

Nobody suggested that. What we actually suggested is that those fans were not slandered in the first place.

The suggestion the fans/donors should use being slandered to introspect themselves is ludicrous
Click to expand...

Nobody suggested that either. The suggestion was clearly about being challenged, not about being slandered.

Again, you can disagree with the idea and continue to claim that it was a slander. But since the other side claims it was not a slander - and since you know that they claim this - then please stop insinuating that people are talking about how we should respond to slander.

You're taking the opinions of others personally.
Click to expand...

Well there's a pot-kettle situation. It's very obvious that people are reacting emotionally to Herman and not giving themselves a chance to be objective about it.

Herman gave an arrogant comment in support of the "Do this or else" command.
Click to expand...

Correct.
1) Have the same standards for who your kids date regardless of the date's skin color, or else
2) Have the same standards for who you hire at your company no matter the race of the applicant, or else
3) Have the same standards for feelings and respect for everyone off the field, or else

Yeah, what a fiend, how dare he. Unless you don't have the same standards in those situations, then he very unambiguously did not call you a racist.

Let's say he was addressing the anti-Semitism that's going around the NBA and NFL right now, and that we had several notable Jewish players upset about it, and Herman had said something like this:

"There might be a little bit of a double-standard because the average non-Jewish fan in a group that is predominantly non Jewish can't relate to what it's like being on the receiving end of anti-Semitism. Do you cheer for them on the field and then go home advocate for conspiracy theories about Jewish people controlling banks and media? Do you put your horns up when they score and then talk to your buddies later about how they exaggerated the Holocaust while making 'greedy Jew' jokes? You can’t have it both ways."

I'm pretty sure that most of the same people livid at him now would not be reacting in a remotely similar manner.
 
Herman had to write what he wrote or he was out of a job following the 0-12 season that was sure to follow. This is analogous to Russia and China calling out everyone in the "free" world in the domestic press. Behind the scenes they are singing a different tune attempting to curry the favor of the free world.

The strange thing is Smart has been totally silent for the past 4 months, and no one is calling him out.
 
It was slander and not questions.
.but ..are they gonna let them date their daughters? Not a question, he is calling out family by race and that is unacceptable.
Same with the rest of his so called “questions”.
It is not his place to call out the fans/donors by race and the feckless administration did nothing.
 
IvanDiabloHorn said:
It was slander and not questions.
.but ..are they gonna let them date their daughters? Not a question, he is calling out family by race and that is unacceptable.
Same with the rest of his so called “questions”.
It is not his place to call out the fans/donors by race and the feckless administration did nothing.
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I don't understand why he added the proviso of dating our daughters or hiring them to the contract of paying the big bucks that we do for the games and merchandise (not to mention foundation donations) along with our spirit at the games. I feel no obligation beyond that. I do not wish anything ill upon the players. I hope they do well in life. But I don't analyze it like that. I buy a ticket. Park a mile away and walk. Cheer until I'm hoarse. Spend big money on beer and crap food. Watch an underachieving roster. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. No refunds. Just unconditional support.

That's the deal.

For Herman to make more of it, IS calling out the fan base. It's none of his business. And it's stupid to make people think he's judging them.

Besides, we didn't put up the statues. We didn't ask for The Eyes of Texas. We didn't honor the wrong people. The University father's did.

Call THEM out.
 
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4th_floor said:
But will 7-2 and 2nd or 3rd in the big 12 be good enough? Not for me, but I don't make the decisions.
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Not good enough. Not for fans or recruits. Is he or is he not an upper tier coach that can get his players to win Big consistently in the B12? He must win the B12 this year. Riley could win it this year with our players. Herman has to show he belongs at an elite program—UT. Winning is how that’s done.
 
caryhorn said:
Not good enough. Not for fans or recruits. Is he or is he not an upper tier coach that can get his players to win Big consistently in the B12? He must win the B12 this year. Riley could win it this year with our players. Herman has to show he belongs at an elite program—UT. Winning is how that’s done.
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This seems to be the consensus but it's also not indicative of where we've been. The entire program needs to make that climb, kind of like the years from 1998-2005 with Mack, and then maintaining that height wasn't possible with his blunders post-2009 season. It's even tougher today with the parity, lax transfer rules, "quick fix" programs like Baylor/TCU, and that sense of entitlement with little to show for it that we've had in Austin since the early 80s.

I think a 7-2 season would definitely be considered a climb from last year, but if that's not good enough for posters, then we'll be stuck on the same roller coaster about what to do to "fix it" since 2010. Winning the conference is something we've done only 6 times in 40 years. That's not elite, nor close to it. Nor is it a Tom Herman problem. Tempered expectations suck, but at least progress is attainable.
 
Tend to agree 11, winning the B12 is not a requirement for me but demonstrable improvement as in record and equally important, blowing some folks out and dominating for the FULL 4 qtrs is something I have not seen and would expect with the experience and potency of this team.
 
I think Herman has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he is not now, nor ever will be an elite coach. The problem is financial, pandemic, and the cupboard is bare at the used coaches store. There is no one to replace him, so we ride a couple of more years into mediocrity. Hopefully, CDC will assign someone to control what Herman says publicly.
 
ViperHorn said:
Herman had to write what he wrote or he was out of a job following the 0-12 season that was sure to follow. This is analogous to Russia and China calling out everyone in the "free" world in the domestic press. Behind the scenes they are singing a different tune attempting to curry the favor of the free world.

The strange thing is Smart has been totally silent for the past 4 months, and no one is calling him out.
Click to expand...
Looks like Kirby Smart is living up to his last name.:smile1:
 
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